30 years later: The uncut version of the LAPD's interview with O.J. Simpson
Lange and Vannatter's skillful collection of evidence from their top suspect
June 12, 2024, is the 30th anniversary of the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. On October 3, 1995, O.J. Simpson was acquitted of their murders in the criminal case—but he was held responsible for the killings by a jury in the subsequent civil case on February 4, 1997, with the help of evidence not presented by the prosecution during the earlier trial.
Along with LAPD Robbery-Homicide Detectives Tom Lange and Philip Vannatter, I am the co-author of the 1997 book, Evidence Dismissed: The Inside Story of the Police Investigation of O.J. Simpson, from which this is excerpted and updated.
It is 1:32 p.m. on June 13, 1994, and O.J. Simpson is sitting patiently, even confidently, on one of four metal chairs in the spartan interrogation room. He only glances at the detectives when they walk in, continuing to look at the bare, dirty beige walls, with their corklike tiles, and the metal table in front of him. There is no window in the room.
Phil Vannatter sets up a tape recorder, as per a request from Howard Weitzman, Simpson’s lawyer who is not present. He tells the suspect, “Now this is what your attorney has told me: He wants me to tape-record the interview that we have with you. And he wants me to advise you of your constitutional rights. Do you understand that? I mean, did you talk to him about that?”
“Yes,” Simpson replies, “I understand that. We talked about it.”
Immediately, both Lange and Vannatter believe that Simpson has probably rejected Weitzman’s advice not to talk without an attorney. If Simpson had taken Weitzman’s advice, either Simpson would not be here now or Weitzman would be sitting beside him for the interview. The detectives now assume that Simpson wants to talk.
Still shocked that they’ll have this free shot at Simpson, Vannatter and his partner, Tom Lange, have not really taken the opportunity to discuss their method of interviewing him—such as working out the details for applying their tried-and-true “good cop-bad cop” routine. Lange usually plays the sensitive good cop who only wants to help the suspect while Vannatter generally acts the part of the aggressive and impatient bad cop who is ready to strap the suspect in the gas chamber.
Lange and Vannatter will not use that tack this time. While Simpson is the primary suspect, they have no solid evidence against him yet; they have nothing with which to pin him down. Yes, they have plenty of blood, but no test has been completed to connect the blood to Simpson. Because he has not been arrested, Simpson must realize that they do not have enough evidence to hold him.
In other words, Lange and Vannatter, like most other police investigators, conduct either interrogations or interviews. And there is a clear distinction between these two devices. In order to interrogate a suspect, the detectives must have hard evidence—such as a completed blood analysis, fingerprints, or even an eyewitness—linking the suspect directly to the crime. In these cases, the detectives will become confrontational and accusatory, because they recognize that they have the evidence they need to nail the suspect.
In those circumstantial cases lacking hard evidence, the detectives will interview the suspect for investigative purposes. They attempt to draw out inconsistencies and other conflicting statements that can move their case forward. In short, Lange and Vannatter do not conduct contentious and accusatory interviews. Instead, they try to gain the cooperation of the witness, allowing him to talk and to disclose information.
The detectives also recognize that Simpson is savvy enough to see through a con. They view this entire interview, for however long it will last, as a gift. If they overplay their hand with Simpson or get in his face, he might easily end the interview and walk out of the building. It’s his choice. He doesn’t have to be here, and he knows it.
In effect, Lange and Vannatter will be flying blindly through the interview. Assuming that a jury might someday hear this tape, the detectives know they must be careful in how they question him.
The key is getting Simpson talking about himself. The longer he feels in control, the longer he’ll talk. The detectives’ goal is to get his statement on the record, particularly about his whereabouts on the night before, hoping that he will view himself as invulnerable and, thus, back himself into a corner.
But, as much as they want Simpson’s story, they also want to have enough goodwill with him by the end of the interview that he will agree to be fingerprinted, permit the freshly injured middle finger of his left hand to be photographed before it heals, and allow the LAPD to take a blood sample. This is the tightrope Lange and Vannatter must walk. Regardless of what comes out of the interview, that blood sample, if Simpson’s really guilty, will be the smoking gun the detectives need to clear this case.
They realize that his voluntary consent to these procedures could help solve this case—without the need for a court order or sweating a confession out of him. Consequently, they will run this interview until Simpson—who already appears tired from his trip to and from Chicago—becomes agitated enough to ask for his attorney or until he simply runs out of “juice.”
With these thoughts in mind, Lange and Vannatter turn on the tape recorder at 1:35 p.m. and begin.
PHILIP VANNATTER: We’re in an interview room in Parker Center. The date is June 13th, 1994, and the time is 1335 hours. And we’re here with O.J. Simpson. Is that Orenthal James Simpson?
O.J. SIMPSON: Orenthal James Simpson.
VANNATTER: And what is your birth date, Mr. Simpson?
SIMPSON: July 9th, 1947.
VANNATTER: Okay. Prior to us talking to you, as we agreed with your attorney, I’m going to give you your constitutional rights. And I would like you to listen carefully. If you don’t understand anything, tell me, okay?
SIMPSON: Yes.
VANNATTER: Okay. Mr. Simpson, you have the right to remain silent. If you give up the right to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak with an attorney and to have an attorney present during questioning. If you so desire and cannot afford one, an attorney will be appointed for you without charge before questioning.
Do you understand your rights?
SIMPSON: Yes, I do.
VANNATTER: Are there any questions about that?
SIMPSON: No.
VANNATTER: Okay, do you wish to give up your right to remain silent and talk to us?
SIMPSON: Ah., yes.
VANNATTER: Okay. . . . We’re investigating, obviously, the death of your ex-wife and another man.
SIMPSON: Someone told us that.
VANNATTER: Yeah, and we’re going to need to talk to you about that. Are you divorced from her now?
SIMPSON: Yes.
VANNATTER: How long have you been divorced?
SIMPSON: Officially? Probably close to two years, but we’ve been apart for a little over two years.
VANNATTER: Have you? What was your relationship with her? What was the—
SIMPSON: Well, we tried to get back together, and it just didn’t work. It wasn’t working, and so we were both going our separate ways.
VANNATTER: Recently you tried to get back together?
SIMPSON: We tried to get back together for about a year, you know, where we started dating each other and seeing each other. She came back and wanted us to get back together, and—
VANNATTER: Within the last year, you’re talking about?
SIMPSON: She came back about a year and four months ago about us trying to got back together, and we gave it a shot. We gave it a shot the better part of a year. And I think we both knew it wasn’t working, and probably three weeks ago or so, we said it just wasn’t working, and we went our separate ways.
VANNATTER: Okay, the two children are yours?
SIMPSON: Yes.
TOM LANGE: Does she have custody?
SIMPSON: Yeah. We both have Joint custody. But she has—
LANGE: It’s already been through the courts?
SIMPSON: We went through the courts and everything. Everything is done. We have no problems with the kids, we do things together, you know, with the kids.
VANNATTER: How was your separation?
SIMPSON: The first separation?
VANNATTER: Yeah, were there problems with that?
SIMPSON: For me, it was—big problems. I loved her. I didn’t want us to separate.
VANNATTER: Uh huh. I understand that she had made a couple of crime reports . . . some warning crime reports or something?
[Vannatter had learned about this earlier that morning while drafting his search warrant at the West Los Angeles Division.]
SIMPSON: Ah, we had a big fight about six years ago on New Year’s, you know, she made a report. I didn’t make a report. And then we had an altercation about a year
ago maybe. It wasn’t a physical argument. I kicked her door or something.
VANNATTER: And she made a police report on those two occasions?
SIMPSON: Mmm hmm. And I stayed right there until the police came, talked to them.
LANGE: Were you arrested at one time for something?
SIMPSON: No. I mean, five years ago we had a big fight, six years ago, I don’t know. I know I ended up doing community service.
LANGE: So you were arrested?
SIMPSON: No, I was never really arrested.
LANGE: They never booked you in or anything like that?
SIMPSON: No. No.
LANGE: Can I ask, when’s the last time you slept?
SIMPSON: I got a couple of hours sleep last night. I mean, you know, I slept a little on the plane, not much, and when I got to the hotel I was asleep a few hours when the, when the phone call came.
LANGE: Did Nicole have a housemaid that lived there?
SIMPSON: I believe so, yes.
LANGE: Do you know her name at all?
SIMPSON: Avia, Alvia, Avia something like that.
LANGE: We didn’t see her there. Did she have the day off perhaps?
SIMPSON: I don’t know. I don’t know what schedule she had her on.
LANGE: Okay. Phil, what do you think? We can Just maybe recount last night—
VANNATTER: Yeah. When was the last time you saw Nicole, O.J.?
SIMPSON: We were leaving the dance recital. She took off, and I was talking to her parents.
VANNATTER: Where was the dance recital?
SIMPSON: Paul Revere [Middle] School.
VANNATTER: And was that for one of your children?
SIMPSON: Yeah, for my daughter, Sydney.
VANNATTER: And what time was that yesterday?
SIMPSON: It ended about 6:30, quarter to seven, you know something like that, I, you know, in the ballpark, right in that area. And they took off.
VANNATTER: They?
SIMPSON: Her and her family—her mother and father, her sisters, my kids.
VANNATTER: Your children. And then you went your own separate ways?
SIMPSON: Yeah, actually she left, and then they came back and her mother got in a car with her, and the kids all piled into her sister’s car, and they—
VANNATTER: Was Nicole driving?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
VANNATTER: What kind of car was she driving?
SIMPSON: Tier black car, a Cherokee.
VANNATTER: Cherokee?
SIMPSON: Jeep Cherokee.
VANNATTER: What were you driving?
SIMPSON: My Rolls-Royce, my Bentley rather.
VANNATTER: Do you own that Ford Bronco that sits outside?
SIMPSON: Hertz owns it, and I, you know, Hertz lets me use it.
VANNATTER: So that’s your vehicle, the one that was parked there on the street?
SIMPSON: Mmm hmm. Yeah.
VANNATTER: And it’s actually owned by Hertz?
SIMPSON: Hertz, yeah.
VANNATTER: Who’s the primary driver on that? You?
SIMPSON: I drive it, the housekeeper drives it, you know, it’s kind of a—
VANNATTER: All-purpose-type vehicle?
SIMPSON: All-purpose-type, yeah. Yeah. It’s the only one that my insurance would allow me to let anybody else drive.
VANNATTER: Okay.
LANGE: When you drive it, where do you park it at home?
SIMPSON: It depends. All kinds of [places].
LANGE: Where it is now, it was in the street or something?
SIMPSON: Always park it on the street.
LANGE: You never take it in behind the—
SIMPSON: Oh, rarely. I mean, I’ll bring it in after I come from golf and switch the stuff, you know, and stuff like that. You know, I did that yesterday.
LANGE: When did you last drive it?
SIMPSON: Yesterday.
VANNATTER: What time yesterday?
SIMPSON: In the morning, in the afternoon.
[Simpson will later say that he parked the Bronco at seven, eight, or nine o’clock on the night of the murders.]
VANNATTER: Okay, you left her, you’re saying, about 6:30 or 7, you or she left the recital?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
VANNATTER: And you spoke with her parents?
SIMPSON: Yeah, we’re just sitting there talking.
VANNATTER: Okay, what time did you leave the recital?
SIMPSON: Right about that time. We were all leaving. We were all leaving then. And they, her mother said something about me joining them for dinner, and I said “no thanks.”
[The Brown family will later deny that they invited Simpson to dinner.]
VANNATTER: Where did you go from there, O.J.?
SIMPSON: Ah, home, ah, home for a while, got in my car for a while, tried to find my girlfriend for a while, came back to the house.
VANNATTER: Who was home when you got home?
SIMPSON: Kato.
VANNATTER: Kato? Anybody else? Was your daughter there, Arnelle?
SIMPSON: No.
VANNATTER: Isn’t that her name, Arnelle?
SIMPSON: Arnelle, yeah.
VANNATTER: So what time do you think you got back home, actually physically got home?
SIMPSON: Seven-something.
VANNATTER: Seven-something?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
VANNATTER: And then you left, and—
SIMPSON: Yeah, I’m trying to think, did I leave? You know, I’m always . . . you know I had to run and get my daughter some flowers. That was actually during the recital, so I rushed and got her some flowers, and then I came home, and then I called Paula as I was going to her house, and Paula wasn’t home.
VANNATTER: Paula is your girlfriend?
SIMPSON: Girlfriend, yeah.
VANNATTER: Paula who?
SIMPSON: Barbieri.
VANNATTER: Could you spell that for me?
SIMPSON: B-A-R-B-I-E-R-I.
VANNATTER: Do you know an address on her?
SIMPSON: No, she lives on Wilshire, but I think she’s out of town.
LANGE: You got a phone number?
[Simpson gives the detectives Barbieri’s telephone number.]
VANNATTER: So you didn’t see her last night?
SIMPSON: No, we’d been to a big affair the night before, and then I came back home. I was basically at home. I mean, any time I was . . . whatever time it took me to get to the recital and back, to get to the flower shop and back, I mean, that’s the time I was out of the house.
VANNATTER: Were you scheduled to play golf this morning, some place?
SIMPSON: In Chicago.
VANNATTER: In Chicago. What kind of a tournament was this?
SIMPSON: Ah, it’s a Hertz, with clients, special clients.
LANGE: Oh, okay. Well that’s the whole thing with Hertz?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
VANNATTER: What time did you leave last night, leave the house?
SIMPSON: To go to the airport?
VANNATTER: Mmm hmm.
SIMPSON: About . . . the limo was supposed to be there at 10:45. Normally, they get there a little earlier. I was rushing around—and somewhere between there and 11 o’clock.
VANNATTER: So approximately 10:45 to eleven.
SIMPSON: Eleven o’clock, yeah, somewhere in that area.
VANNATTER: And you went by limo?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
VANNATTER: Who’s the limo service?
SIMPSON: I don’t know. You have to ask my office.
LANGE: Did you converse with the driver at all? Did you talk to him?
SIMPSON: Yeah, he’s a new driver probably. Normally, I have a regular driver I drive with that converses.
LANGE: Remember his name?
SIMPSON: No, just about rushing to the airport, about how I live my life on airplanes, and hotel food and so on, that type of thing.
LANGE: What time did your plane leave?
SIMPSON: All, 11:45 the plane took off.
VANNATTER: What airline was it?
SIMPSON: American.
VANNATTER: American? And it was 11:45 to Chicago?
SIMPSON: Chicago.
LANGE: So yesterday you did drive the white Bronco?
SIMPSON: Mmmn hmm.
LANGE: And where did you park it when you brought it home?
SIMPSON: Ummm, the first time probably by the mailbox. I’m trying to think, or did I bring it in the driveway? Normally, I will park it by the mailbox, sometimes I will.
LANGE: On Ashford, or Ashland?
SIMPSON: On Ashford, yeah.
LANGE: Where did you park it yesterday for the last time, do you remember?
SIMPSON: Right where it is.
LANGE: Where it is now?
SIMPSON: Yeah.
LANGE: Where, on . . .?
SIMPSON: Right on the street there.
LANGE: On Ashford?
SIMPSON: No, on Rockingham.
LANGE: You parked it there?
SIMPSON: Yes.
LANGE: About what time was that?
SIMPSON: Eight-something, seven . . . eight, nine o’clock, I don’t know, right in that area.
[Just a few minutes earlier, Simpson had said that he had last driven the Bronco “in the morning, in the afternoon.”]
LANGE: Did you take it to the recital?
SIMPSON: No.
LANGE: What time was the recital?
SIMPSON: Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got my car, I was going to see my girlfriend. I was calling her and she wasn’t around.
VANNATTER: So you drove the . . . you come home in the [Bentley], and then you got in the Bronco—
SIMPSON: In the Bronco, because my phone was in the Bronco. And because it’s a Bronco. It’s a Bronco, it’s what I drive, you know. I’d rather drive it than any other car. And, I you know, and as I was going over there, I called her a couple of times and she wasn’t there, and I left a message, and then I checked my messages, and she had left a message that she wasn’t there, and that she may have to leave town. And then I came back and ended up sitting with Kato.
[Later, during a sworn deposition, Simpson would state that he wasn’t aware that Barbieri had left a message earlier that morning, ending their relationship.]
LANGE: Okay, and about what time was this again that you—
SIMPSON: Eight-something, maybe.
LANGE: [INAUDIBLE]
SIMPSON: Relatively, he hadn’t taken a, he hadn’t done a—
[Later, Simpson will state that, as opposed to “leisurely” getting ready to go, he was “rushing to get out of my house.”]
LANGE: You weren’t in a hurry when you came back with—
SIMPSON: No.
LANGE: The reason I asked you, the cars were parked kind—
LANGE: So you had it inside the compound, then?
SIMPSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
LANGE: Oh, okay.
VANNATTER: O.J. what’s—
SIMPSON: I brought it inside the compound to get my stuff.
VANNATTER: O.J. What’s your office phone number?
[Simpson gives Vannatter the telephone number.]
VANNATTER: How did you get the injury on your hand?
[The detectives note that this is where Simpson begins to give varying versions about how he cut the middle finger of his left hand.]
SIMPSON: I don’t know. At the first time, I know I had it—
VANNATTER: How did you do it in Chicago?
SIMPSON: I broke a glass. I just was—. You had—. One of—
LANGE: Is that how you cut it?
SIMPSON: Mmm, it was cut before, but I think I just opened—
LANGE: Do you recall—
SIMPSON: Pardon me?
LANGE: Do you recall bleeding at all in your truck, in the Bronco?
[Later, Simpson will recant this, saying he wasn’t retrieving his phone but rather his phone equipment.]
LANGE: Mmm hmm.
SIMPSON: [Or] whatever that is.
LANGE: Where’s the phone now?
SIMPSON: In my bag.
[The detectives do not receive a clearer answer as to how Simpson cut his finger.]
LANGE: Do you have the keys to that Bronco?
[A blow-up photograph of Simpson with his daughter taken at the recital shows that he was not wearing tennis shoes.]
VANNATTER: Tennis shoes? Do you know what kind?
SIMPSON: Yeah, I was coming back today.
LANGE: Just overnight?
SIMPSON: Yeah. Gonna play golf today.
VANNATTER: That’s a hectic schedule, drive back here to—
SIMPSON: Yeah, but I do it all the time.
VANNATTER: Do you?
SIMPSON: Yeah. That’s what I was complaining with the—
[Long pause |
VANNATTER: O.J., we’ve got sort of a problem.
SIMPSON: Mmm hmm.
VANNATTER: We’ve got some blood on and in your car,
SIMPSON: Well, we’ll take my blood test, and you’ll see.
LANGE: Well, we’d like to do that. We’ve got, of course, the—
SIMPSON: Can’t be any clearer than I am.
LANGE: Okay. Do you recall having that cut on your finger?
SIMPSON: A week ago?
LANGE: Yeah.
SIMPSON: No. I’m pretty sure. Yeah. Yeah. It was last night.
LANGE: Okay, so it’s last night that you cut it.
SIMPSON: Yeah. Yeah.
[The detectives note that Simpson has again said that he cut his finger on the night of the murders while he was still in Los Angeles and before leaving for Chicago.]
VANNATTER: Somewhere after the recital?
SIMPSON: Somewhere when I was rushing to get out of my—
[Just a few minutes earlier, Simpson had said that he was “leisurely” getting ready to go.]
VANNATTER: Okay, after the recital.
SIMPSON: Yeah.
LANGE: What do you think happened? Do you have any—
SIMPSON: I have no idea, man.
LANGE: Had she been getting threatening phone calls?
SIMPSON: You guys haven’t told me anything. I have no—
[Neither Lange nor Vannatter have given Simpson’s daughter, Arnelle, any information about the case. And, up to this point, Simpson has not asked either detective any questions about the case. Even if he had asked, the detectives’ intention was to be evasive, concentrating instead on what Simpson, now the top suspect, knew.]
VANNATTER: Well, we don’t know a lot of the answers to—
[The detectives note that the killer parked in the rear of Brown’s condominium.]
LANGE: You do park in the rear.
LANGE: How long were you together?
SIMPSON: Seventeen years.
LANGE: Seventeen years.
VANNATTER: Did you ever hit her, O.J.?
SIMPSON: Ah, one night we had a fight. That night we had—
VANNATTER:. . . slapped her a couple of times.
SIMPSON: No, no, I rassled her, is what I did. I didn’t slap—
[The detectives later will receive the police report of the 1989 incident in which Nicole claimed that he had beaten her, as well as photographs of his battered wife.]
LANGE: What is her birth date?
SIMPSON: May 19th.
LANGE: Did you get together with her on her birthday?
SIMPSON: Yeah, her and I and the kids, I believe.
LANGE: Did you give her a gift?
SIMPSON: I gave her a gift.
LANGE: What did you give her?
SIMPSON: I gave her either the bracelet or the earrings.
LANGE: Did she keep them or did she return them?
SIMPSON: Oh, no, when we split she gave me both the earrings and the bracelet back. I bought her a very nice bracelet—I don’t know if it was Mother’s Day or her birthday—and I bought her the earrings for the other thing, and when we split—and it take credit to her—she felt that it wasn’t right that she had it, and I said good because I want them back.
SIMPSON: Now you do that, too. Yeah. Yeah.
LANGE: Now [and] then we do that to eliminate people.
SIMPSON: But does it work for elimination?
LANGE: Oh, yes. We use it for elimination more than—
SIMPSON: Well, I’ll talk to him about it.
LANGE: Understand, the reason we’re talking to you is—
VANNATTER: Is that your blood that’s dripped there?
SIMPSON: If it’s dripped, it’s what I dripped running.
[Once again, the detectives note, Simpson has indicated that he cut himself before leaving for Chicago.]
VANNATTER: Last night?
SIMPSON: Yeah, and I wasn’t aware that it was . . . I was—
[The LAPD did not find a bloodstained napkin during its search of Simpson’s house.]
VANNATTER: That was last night after you got home from—
[Again, Simpson had earlier said that he was “leisurely” getting ready to go.]
VANNATTER: Well, I’m going to step out and I’m going to—
[At this point, Lange realizes that Simpson is giving him nothing but evasive patter. Knowing that he has no hard evidence with which to confront him, the detective senses that Simpson will offer nothing more. If Lange gets in Simpson’s face on the basis of the inconsistencies he has already made, then the detective chances agitating Simpson and stands to lose the opportunity to fingerprint Simpson, photograph his injured middle finger while the wound is still fresh, and take his blood sample.]
LANGE: Okay, and the last time you saw Nicole, was that at—
SIMPSON: Not in the last week.
LANGE: Ever. I mean, how long has she lived there? About—
LANGE: Well, whatever. Six months she’s lived there?
SIMPSON: I don’t know. Roughly. Last week—. I was at her house maybe two weeks ago, or ten days ago. One night her and I had a long talk, you know, about, you know, how can we make it better for the kids, and how can we do things better, you know? And, okay, I can almost say when that was. That was when I . . . I don’t know, it was about ten days ago. And then we, I had her . . . The next day I had her dog do a flea bath or something with me. Oh, I’ll tell you, I did see her one day. One day I went—
LANGE: We’re ready to terminate this at 1407.
Also see: DEM, Mobology “30 years ago, Detective Tom Lange helped save the life of O.J. Simpson,” April 11, 2024
Fascinating interview.